EP 29 | The Rant

How do you know that the Spirit of God is working in your life to revive you? You’re reading the Bible like never before. You’re praying like never before. You’re committed to the local church like never before. Not because you go to a beach and get baptized with a thousand people. How many of those people that are getting baptized are reading or devouring scripture? How many of them are committed to local churches that are committed to expository preaching? How many of them are the average church attendance, I think, and where we are in Southern California is probably the average Christian goes to church twice a month. You can go to a baptismal. You want to say you’re part of a revival. But if your church attendance, if your life is not centered around the life of the local church, you’re not experiencing what true biblical revival. Revival is just the spirit of God working in a Christian’s life in a normal way. Welcome to Pastor Scholour, bridging the gap, examining issues from both a pastoral and academic perspective. I am Chris Miller, your moderator, joining me as always, is founding Pester Revolt Bible Church, Ryan Day, and Dr. Corey Marsh, editor, author, and professor of New Testament, at Southern California Seminary. On this episode, we are introducing a new segment we call, (bell dings) with a rant. There are a total of seven topics and only seven minutes will be given to you. Either Corey or Ryan will start a topic and I will give a one minute warning when to stop. So let me. Wasn’t this like the original plan for a podcast? The original plan was the grumpy scholar and and the what crabby and the crap faster so this is your opportunity to rant gentlemen and we’ll begin with our first topic women pastors husband and wife co pastors love them and pastor Ryan you get to start off on this topic what do you make of the rise of women pastors as well as husband and wife co-pastors. Why is this biblical your time starts now? – What do we make of the rise of women pastors, unbiblical? First Timothy too is explicitly clear that women aren’t to not teach and exercise authority over him. Paul goes on to say that women are saved through child bearing and Paul’s point in that is he’s encouraging women that have been told by a group of false teachers that came into the city of Ephesus, that they don’t have value if they’re not teaching, or they’re not doing the same things at the leaders of the church are doing. Paul was reminding them, no, they have value because of how God has created them. So when they embrace who they are in the way that God’s created them, they’re still saved just like elders in a local church are saved. So I think that the rise of women pastors today is the result of two things. I think it’s primarily the result of worldliness creeping into the church. And secondarily, which goes along with that, creeping into the church, and secondarily, which goes along with that, is an abandoning of the authority of Scripture. When Scripture is not our authority, the world and the thinking around us begins to dictate how we function. And so I think that’s why the issue of women pastors in the church, it’s really not the issue. The issue is not can women teach. Of course, women can teach. We see so many examples of that in the Bible. It has nothing to do with giftedness. The Bible, even the word shepherd is even used as a verb that seems to indicate at times that women have the ability to do that. But as it relates to the office of the local church, women cannot do that and the issue is authority. It’s not about what women can or can’t do. It’s about what is your authority in the church, is your authority the word of God. So I would say to listeners or people, I’m doing really good on time. This is not even going to take me seven minutes. I’m trying to rush. She’s like, say this, but I don’t need you. – When there’s a time limit, I get so like the thumb rolls. – But I look at the clock and I’m good. I can say something. – And Chris is thumbed right now. – No I look at the clock? – Well, I’m good. I can say something. – Well, in Chris’s thumbs right hand. – No, no, no, no, no. (laughing) But I would say this to anyone listening, why, if you’re someone who’s looking for a church, why should you not go to a church that has women pastors? Because the issue is that at the very top level, they have begun to abandon the authority of Scripture. And that eventually is going to trickle down into other areas within that church. It’s just a matter of time before God’s Word is not the authority in some other area. You might go to a church that is conservative and all of a sudden they’re just kind of going the SBC trend and they decide you know what we’re going to start calling these ladies who are coordinating different events pastors because you know they’re kind of like functioning like pastors but you know they’re not the teaching pastor but we’re going to call them pastors and there might be a lot of other things about that church that are really really really good but at that level they’ve if they’ve compromised at the top, the authority of Scripture, they’ve let Satan in the door. – There’s a couple of good distinctions that are so important you’re bringing out. One, the distinction between the office and the gifting or skill, right? We’re talking, is this your rant or my rant? Well, I can’t know if it’s your answer. I don’t know the rule. I’m sorry. Well, you’re just dribbling on. I’m not going to hold my brain. I’m right. So you’re right. This is your rant. I like the distinction you’re driving to in the office and the skill set or the or the gift in because there are when they’re gifted to teach. We’re talking about a and the other distinction in the authority, which comes, which is tied to the office. Yes. Right. That’s what, that’s, that’s really where the issue is. What is authoritative? What is the Bible tells us? Well, but when you think about this, when we as elders exercise authority, we don’t have intrinsic authority in ourselves. The authority is in the text. But when, when a woman is appointed as a pastor, you’ve abandoned the authority of the text, and you’ve actually put the intrinsic authority in that woman. Does that make sense? It’s an issue of authority, and we need to maintain the authority of the local church is Jesus Christ, Jesus is the head of the church, and Jesus exercises His will through His Word. So as men are exercising authority in the church, it’s not their own authority, it’s a borrowed authority. They’re exercising the borrowed authority of Christ as they’re rightly dividing the word of truth. If you’re not rightly dividing First Timothy II, then how can we trust that you’re going to rightly divide everything else? And it’s plain. It’s really not, there are some technical issues as it relates to how do we interpret second Timothy II or deal with egalitarianism or complementaryism or or patriarch a patriarchal model. I’m not trying to make it sound like there’s not complicated. It hermeneutical issues or theological issues there are, but first Timothy too is clear. You don’t have to have an advanced degree to understand Paul’s command. Now you mean, maybe you need a little biblical training to understand why is Paul saying this as it relates to the biblical theology there, like what’s going on in first Timothy that would lead Paul to say that, but the text and the command is clear. So let’s not violate it. And husband and a life pastor is, I mean, you see this so often in the church now. Yeah, my, my wife is not a pastor. My wife’s job is to minister to me. That’s a unique calling. Because as a pastor, I have certain struggles. I have issues that I deal with that are unique to my role in life. And so her job is to be my helpmate. But she’s also a blood bot, regenerate daughter of God, and he gets to decide how he’s gifted her and how he wants to use her in local church. That our church, my wife is the children’s ministry coordinator, partly because she’s just got a ton of free time, but she also has a passion and heart for children ’cause we have the burden of infertility, but God has used that burden of infertility to give my wife a passion for the children. The reason why that often happens in churches is the idea, there’s a couple of reasons. I don’t know where I’m out of my rant. No, there’s 30 seconds. I’m going to take a little bit longer than that because Cori interrupted me. No, no, no. I could have my phone. No. The issue with wives being the co-passers is oftentimes what happens is that you have men who are for one reason or the other uncomfortable shepherding women. And so their wives effectively become the pastor that tries to pastor the women. But the elders of a local church are to pastor the kids, they’re to pastor the women, they’re to pastor the man. There’s no, we’re the pastors of all the sheep. – Uh huh. – And. (laughing) – You see the people listening, can’t see the clock in front of us and Chris has been getting closer to the button. >> What was that? >> You were just slightly over 7. >> Okay. >> You said you would give him one minute warning. >> I give you a 30 second warning. >> You gotta give me a better offering. >> I will do a better job. All right, next one. >> Seminary is unnecessary. How do you answer someone who says that a seminary education is not necessary to be a preacher, Corey, you are time starts now. Yeah, I understand the sentiment of those who say that seminary is unnecessary to be a preacher or pastor in a ministry. And technically, it depends on what we mean by necessary. There’s an aspect where that’s true. There’s nothing that says in the New Testament, you have to go to seminary to shepherd, to pastor. There were no seminaries then. There were no colleges or universities and that would be a medieval era idea and seminaries to come out out of the monastic movement after that too. So I understand why someone say that it’s unnecessary to be a pastor or a preacher. My thing is, if you really are understanding your calling to, you know, from God to pastor his people, why would you not want the best training possibly get for that? Because there just aren’t resources outside of academia, say, from my context, a seminary education. So I’m this, I’m including Bible colleges, Bible institutes, even divinity schools, accretion schools that may have these programs. Outside of those institutions, those resources just aren’t there for you to be trained in Hermoninical Theory, homiletics, church history, the languages, biblical Greek and Hebrew, different areas of the intersections of different theological disciplines, biblical theology, systematic theology, historical theology, practical theology, apologetics, all these things. The resources are focused, I mean, institutions like seminaries are focused on providing that type of education. So if you are a man of God, feeling called upeth a man in first, him, the three, you have, you desire something good. It’s a burning desire. Then I have, I have problems with those who say claim they have that desire, but then don’t want to do the diligent work of concentrated study. Take great pain into these things, Paul said it to me. – Do I get, no, you interrupted my hand. – No, you interrupted my hand. – No, no, no, no, no. – All right, yeah, exactly. So it’s like you are to take pains in this. You’re at a labor to be spoudad, so have diligence. Second to me, the 215, to make sure you’re rightly handling the word of truth. All that is included within the seminary education. Now, I say that knowing, obviously, there is not a legal requirement that you must go to seminary to get an MDiv, Master of Divinity and Degree, or something like that, to pastor or church. Those who say that you don’t need to go to seminary for to be a pastor, I mean, I actually look at it as a fundamental for evangelicalism. Theological education is part of it. The very last thing that Peter wrote, second Peter 3.18, it’s a present imperative. The very last thing he said is to grow in the grace and knowledge of Lord Jesus Christ. So we’re constantly to grow in our theology that happens in the Church of course, but it also happens on the concentrated level, say in seminary. If you’re at that level to want that crisis and trusted his sheep to you, then go do the training. I’ve had students, so a lot of my students are working pastors. I’ve had students who are waiting to become pastors. They get hired as a church at a church and then they need to drop seminary. That’s the very reason why you need to be there. Now you need to be that better minister, that more equipped minister. You don’t leave seminary once you get that pastor job type of idea, right? Those, I mean, when you look at the global statistics from Gordon Conville, the Global Center for Christianity and things called, 95% of the world’s pastors do not have a formal education. 95%, that means only 5% of working pastors have been to seminary, divinity, school, bibocology, something like that. Now think of all the bad theology that’s out there in the world, and we recently had CRISPRNET and Miss Yall’s bad missions practice, he was talking about that or out there, going everywhere outside the text for missionary strategies. Is academia really to blame when only 5% have gone to Christian colleges and seminaries for training? It seems to me if those numbers are pointing to, and there’s a lot of good, obviously untrained pastors out there. I’m formally untrained. Don’t get me wrong on that. But the statistics bear out that it’s actually the lack of education is a big reason for the amount of bad theology and practices we have. Those who I’ve also heard this as well, you don’t need to go to seminary, just read books, read the books on seminary, or books on theology, stuff like that. Yeah, of course you can, you should be self-taught. You know, you should always devote yourself to studying and reading. That’s what Christians do, especially Christian leaders as well. But that argument, it lacks something. They don’t realize they’re inadvertently borrowing from the author who is more likely than not credentialed and went to seminary. A lot of the books that we read are from PhDs, or at least those with graduate degrees from seminary. So now you’re actually borrowing. It was certainly necessary for that author to write that. His training went or her training went into that book that you are now just kind of like, you know, slightly just just just dismissing it. Just read books you don’t need seminary. Well, that often needed the seminary training or the university or Divinity School trained to write that book that you’re just, you know, inadvertently borrowing from not even realizing it, right? So implicitly you are getting some aspect of seminary in just reading the book. So it is necessary in that sense if you want to be a better pastor because you’re reading books by those who went to seminary in just reading the book. So it is necessary in that sense, if you wanna be a better pastor, ’cause you’re reading books by those who went to seminary. We had on not too long ago Madison Trammell, the publisher of B&H Academic. Do you remember he even said to be an author for them, entry level requirement was a PhD? – Yeah. – So even to be an author in these Christian publishers that write the books, the credential is to be have a formal theological education before it trickles down to that person that right that, you know, takes it off the bookshelf and says, oh, just read books. Seminary, divinity schools, Bible college, they’re all baked into the whole Christian academic, you know, publishing in the seminary doesn’t just make you read and make it teaches you how to think. Of course. And that would be another one. So I mean, there’s so many different benefits with seminary. It’s you’re learning critical thinking skills. You’re learning how to do research, you’re learning how to prioritize things in theology. I heard Chris say one minute. So maybe a better way to phrase a question is instead of is seminary necessary is seminary a biblical requirement? No. Is seminary helpful? Yes. Yeah. So obviously I’m going to be a little biased too. I’m being a seminary professor. I think I always have a problem. I mentioned this earlier. But those who want to be in ministry and yet the moment they are challenged in seminary with with a certain book or learning the languages or something like that and then just wanna pull out and drop out, I’m thinking really like maybe you shouldn’t be a minister. If that’s, if you’re challenged with your academics and then you just drop it, if it really is that high of a calling and demanding Spudazzo, so you can tell me the two 15th diligence to do this and a burn desire to do it, then you should get as equipped as you possibly can, and seminary has the resources to do that. – Wonderful, wow, seven minutes on the dock. Good job 59. – Wow, I am very impressed. – Next topic, even when it’s getting to the rest. (laughing) – Next topic, Pastor Ryan, baptize America on June 8th, 2025. A thousand subscriptions across America are expected to participate in the world’s, what’s being called the world’s largest, synchronized, water baptism. Does this concept of synchronized baptisms across America not take our Lord’s ordinance seriously? Your time starts now. – Yes. That’s kind of a leading question. The way you’re leading that question is now. Well, you’re baking in the answer to it. I suppose. I suppose. Man, without giving a whole theology of baptism, but we believe in believers baptism. And what that means is that in the New Testament, we see an inseparable link between faith and the practice of baptism. Some conservative evangelical traditions do not see a link between faith and baptism. And so they baptize infants because they don’t believe you need to have faith before you’re baptized. Instead, baptism is an inclusion in a theological covenant system. We’re in the Baptist stream, which means that we see that baptism is and is inseparably linked to the faith and as want someone exercises faith there to be baptized. These these massive synchronized baptisms across America are a works-based, come-from-a-works-based theology that is trying to fight against the cultural decline. And so the idea, as I think, I don’t know if they’d articulated it this way, but from my perspective as an outsider, is they’re trying to show that there’s some type of revival occurring. So people that have already been baptized are being baptized again. And the New Testament’s clear is that we’re not baptized over and over and over again, because baptism is not a sacrament in that it dispenses some type of saving grace. It is a sacrament in the sense that– I think of the theology that’s the one that’s going to jumped in right now. Yeah, go ahead. In Romans 5 and 6, in Romans 6, I believe it is around there, that we are baptized into Christ’s death. Now, think of what is the picture if you constantly re-baptize yourself? Dying over and over. Oh, nobody wants to. Christ’s death isn’t good enough. He has to constantly die for me. So for a baptized into his death, which was once on the cross, you were baptized once to demonstrate. Amen. Amen. demonstrate. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. We just ended on that. And being baptized is a response. It’s a first active obedience in response to faith. And it’s showing that you’re included in the church, you’re a member of the church of Jesus Christ. So this idea of synchronized baptisms, I think it’s rooted in a bad theology of the gospel. I think it’s rooted in a bad theology of revival and I think it’s in part due to Christian nationalism which we reject and trying to Christianize the nation. And so this whole idea of synchronized baptisms, it’s just a bad theology across the board and it can’t be supported biblically. Revival in Scripture is– – Not manipulated. – It’s never manipulated. And it’s a revival of what we would call the common means of grace. Bible reading, prayer, fellowship. How do you know that the Spirit of God is working in your life to revive you? You’re reading the Bible like never before. You’re praying like never before. You’re committed to the local church like never before. Not because you go to a beach and get baptized with a thousand people. How many of those people that are getting baptized are reading or devouring scripture? How many of them are committed to local churches that are committed to expository preaching? How many of them are the average church attendance I think in where we are in Southern California is probably the average Christian goes to church twice a month. That you can go to a baptismal, you want to say you’re part of a revival, but if your church attendance, if your life is not centered around the life of the local church, you’re not experiencing true biblical revival. Revival is just the spirit of God working in a Christian’s life in a normal way. I think Christian goes archer twice a month. Yeah, that’s true. Well, Chris, we’re being praying for your writing. So to answer your question, Chris, no, you should not participate in the synchronized baptisms across America. But it does support Chris. I feel too like a emotionalism, right? It’s sort of that idea. It is. You’re getting swept up in the fervor of this idea. Like you think theoretically, it sounds like a great idea. You know, like hands across America or something like, let’s us unite as Christians and be baptized together, but what is it really picturing? And it’s not taking to use your words seriously, the reverence and the one-time deal. – I think it’s taking God’s name in vain. And you can go to Israel today and you can be baptized in the river Jordan. And I have never understood why people do that. They wanna do it because they want to experience being baptized in the river where Jesus was baptized or John the Baptist was conducting his baptism of repentance. But remember, John the Baptist baptism was a baptism of repentance. It’s different than Christian baptism. And so I say taking the Lord’s name in vain is people are paying to do this. And so rather than it’s a vain thing. Instead of taking God seriously at his word and being baptized in the way and for the purpose that God had prescribed it, we’ve turned it into this commercialized experience that you can do when you’re on a tourist attraction. I know I’m probably gonna get in trouble for saying that, but I think it’s an active vanity that is in a front and a fence to the biblical idea of baptism. – Well, it is. And it’s also a demonstration of bad theology, which at his level is hermeneutics, because I know people that are baptized and rebaptized in support of people being baptized for the first time. So they’re in the lecture they were born together with them to be baptized with them for support. – That kind of thing. – Well, you have Mormons. So that’s the other thing too. I don’t know the statistics in seconds to talk about Mormons. – I don’t know the 15 seconds to talk about Mormons. I don’t know the, well, I didn’t get a woman on the morning. You have not quite a minute. A little bit of a minute. So this, the concept of synchronized baptisms across America. Well, today we say the Christian dumb encompasses Roman Catholics. It encompasses Mormons. Mormons do baptisms for the dead. They divorce faith because they believe that baptism is a work. So, you know, all these people that are getting together to be baptized, like what are they actually believe about baptism? So that’s another reason that this is just, I don’t wanna join with the unfruitful works of darkness. I don’t wanna be baptized with a Mormon who believes that it’s a work that results in some type of merit on my part. That’s on a front, I think, to a God of grace who our salvation is fully worded in the merit of Christ and what Christ has done. Well, good job under seven minutes. All right. All right. Next topic. Corey, Christian celebrity. Uh oh. What is it? And how does it affect the church your time starts now? If I get fired for any of these rants, I’m hoping someone’s gonna offer me a job. (laughing) Well, as I’ve said before in our podcast, I’m gonna start with this line, we must kill Christian celebrities. I haven’t called it celebritiesism, that ISM, it’s like a movement. It’s a plague that is crippling the body of Christ here in the United States, the least American evangelicals, and where it is about building one’s image and platform and church, which really becomes an empire to that image brand. And you cannot tarnish the image brand. And the great excuse for it is because it provides jobs and ministry opportunities and the gospel is going out ways it hadn’t before, right back to pragmatism, right? So it’s almost like the all-encompassing American justification for anything, including American and Christianian is jobs. So if you are a celebrity with your own ministry and employing all these people under them, no one is gonna keep that celebrity accountable because their jobs are at stake, right? And then how many times have we seen scandal after scandal after scandal, after scandal, moral scandals, financial scandals, things like of that nature, was someone who was the head of the ministry that nobody wanted to confront because why they’re detached from the local church and accountability of themselves, ironically, even if they lead a local church, which could be 20, 30,000 people, however a local church, which could be 20,000 people. However, many of you are talking about mega churches, Christian celebrityism is an awful plague on the ancient, bloody faith that we call Christianity. You know, I think I’m thinking of a really good book, I might mention it later as well with recommending the reading. I had recently just finished a manuscript submitted to the publisher and I actually have a chapter. It’s funny you’re calling this a rant. I think I literally call it a rant on Christian celebrities and other than I’m thinking about it as we’re talking here. But somebody’s definition of Christian celebrity is celebrity is really helpful. Caitlin Beatty, published a book with Barazos a couple of years ago, celebrities for Jesus. And she defined celebrity as social power without proximity. And I think it’s really helpful. Social power, so you have a power within a group without proximity, meaning you’re not really close to people and they’re not really close to you. So there’s this sort of impassable gulf between you and the people that think they know you. It’s really a persona they know and you have power, right? Not merely influence, but power now to do what you want to do because you’re not held accountable. Right? Again, this goes back to my idea about because I mean, for one thing, jobs are at stake. So if we’re going to take Caitlin B.D.’s definition of celebrityism, which can go into Christian celebrity, a social power without proximity, I think it’s really good. I make a distinction between Christian celebrity and the public minister, because there are really good faithful pastors and preachers and authors out there, that some might just call celebrity ’cause they’re well known. But it depends on how we’re defining celebrity. So someone just being well known does not meet that definition all the time of celebrity, of social power without proximity. So what do you do with the public minister? Those who are publicly that are publishing PUB, publishing in public that makes you public, that you’re speaking at conferences, you’re, you know, you’re doing podcasts, interviews, something that you’re in the public forum. There is a distinction between Christian celebrity and public minister. If Christian celebrity is social power without proximity, I would define public minister as social influence. So no longer power, social influence for Christ within proximity. Those who are well known public ministers, but aren’t celebrities, they may have a wide reach publicly, but they are close to people, they are held accountable, they are, they are fellshipping within their church and held accountable to the elders that are there. They are vulnerable in the sense where people know them to be able to confront them and hold them accountable and to encourage them. So it’s not just bad for accountability, but which is a good thing, obviously, but also for encouragement and prayer. And they have social influence. So as among people, they’re influencing people for Christ. They don’t have social power over them. They’re not lording it over their people as Jesus born against. That’s what Gentiles do. They have social influence. They have influencing people for Christ within proximity. It’s how I would define a public minister being different than a Christian celebrity. Too often we have industrialized the faith and unfortunately you can it’s sad when you can think I know there are lyrics of a song I’m thinking of right now or it kind of pokes fun of being a pastor I was a minister for the women in fame and it’s like that is an actual from the worldly perspective. That is a perspective of Christian ministry is for fame, for wealth, and for all the trappings that come with it, say, women and adultress affairs that come with and all the scandals that come from with it. That is a terrible mark on what Christian ministry is, at least from the world’s perspective, but to be fair to the world, they have reason to think that. And when we in American evangelicalism prioritize image branding and fake doctorates and ghost writing and industries of radio and TV and all that stuff, that can be good. They’re just neutral themselves by how their use can make a difference. If you’re prioritizing that over the people that crisis giving you to shepherd and to train them in scripture to grow on their awareness and presence of God, then you are guilty of Christ’s celebrityism and you need to repent. It is a sin. Anything you want to… You have some? I tried not to interrupt this time. What do you think Christ’s celebrity rhy Ryan? Would you fall within that? – You have to apply one minute. – Of course you. – I agree with Corey’s description and I think it’s, I think it’s something that’s harmed the body of Christ, particularly in the West immensely. – All right. We’ll move on to the next topic. – Do I have to do seven minutes? Or can we just go? – We can do one. – We can do under seven, it’s okay. – We can get hunger, we need you. (laughing) – I’m going to do it. – Do I have to do seven minutes or can we just go? – We can do under seven. – Okay, we can get hunger, we need to eat lunch. – Online treatment by fellow– – Zuko Jikin. – Zuko Jikin. – Zuko Jikin. – Oh wow. Online treatment by fellow Christians, pastor Ryan. When interacting online with an inquiry will have some questions. You can’t, this might take more than seven minutes. When interacting online with fellow Christians, how is the witness of the church? – This is my heart by derogatory comments. So, Pastor Ryan, your time starts now. – When interacting online with fellow Christians, how is the witness of the church harmed by derogatory comments? Well, it’s harmed immensely. We are, as Christians, we are to be assertive with the truth. I think Chris Barnett just, or Burnett, argued that beautifully in a past podcast that we did because we actually have the truth and other people don’t have the truth. And so we need to be bold with the truth. In one sense, I appreciate what’s happening right now in our culture, in our cultural moment in 2005. There is a resurgence in militancy for the truth. And I appreciate that. But I don’t think that, I think that unfortunately, what’s occurring is that militancy is being confused for godliness and that it’s somehow trumps compassion and respect. We are to be militant with the truth, but we’re not only to be militant with the truth. And I think that this is also in our cultural moment, something that’s a reality with this idea that we call cancel culture. Depends how you define cancel culture. Pio research did a survey on how people define cancel culture. It’s defined differently by different people that lean politically, that lean different ways politically. But if your ideas is that if someone, a lot of people, this idea of counterculture to them means that if somebody disagrees with you, you just cancel them. And so that’s a part of living in 2005 right now. We don’t know how, and this is infected the church. We don’t know how, and this is infected the church. We don’t know how to have healthy disagreements and conversations. I would say this, I think part of it’s rooted in insecurity. And when I think people are insecure in what they actually believe, they are more ready to fight because anything that comes against what they think is makes them feel uneasy or assaulted. When someone even may be presenting a better argument, it’s just easier to fight and to be dismissive and to be derogatory. It’s hard and it because it takes a level of humility to actually listen to a person. Social media is another component of this when you added interacting with fellow Christians online. How is the witness of the Church with Dark The problem with getting in a fight online is you’re not, the person is not a human. It’s words on a page. When you have a conversation with someone, it humanizes them. And you’re less apt to be derogatory or fight them. You know, I bench pest 345 pounds, I’m 6’2″, and I weigh 265 pounds. We have to take you to word out on the other side. I’m not 6’2″, I’m almost 6’1″, my wife would say. But I weigh 265 pounds. In person, I have a larger frame. I’m a physically imposing person. People are less apt to argue in person when you’re a lot bigger than them. – And a marine. – Yeah, and that’s not to say I’m trying to be physically intimidating to people. My point is, is that it just It changes the dynamic when a human being is in front of you And I think as Christians we need to remember that on social media if it’s not an algorithm There’s actually a person behind that and that person I got a ticket. I rolled a stop sign this last week And I called a friend of mine who’s a police officer and I was upset about it. And my friend said, you know, I’d be gracious to him because you don’t know what kind of call he was on right before he pulled you over. And I thought, yeah, he’s a human. And that’s a great point. What if something he had a violent interaction with a criminal right before he pulled me over and he had to go right back to writing a ticket. – Or he was the same guy that pulled me over. (laughing) – He was just one of those cops that are like really– – Anyway, my point is is that when we humanize people, it helps us to interact as Christians in a more Christlike way. There’s only one miracle of judgment in all of the gospels when Jesus cursed the fig tree. Two times Jesus cleansed the temple, but he cleansed the temple because the Pharisees were keeping the Gentiles from worshiping in the court of the Gentiles. He was, he was grieved that they were keeping Gentiles far from Yahweh and because of their greed. And so Jesus was angry at that. But Jesus’ interaction, even in fact I’m looking at a text right now in Mark where the Pharisees are questioning Jesus about his authority and he asked them a question back and says, “Will you tell me whose baptism was the baptism of John from heaven or was it from earth?” When I read that I thought, wow, what an act of grace. They’re trying to trip him up about his authority and here he is in his question, giving them an opportunity to repent and acknowledge where his authority comes from. Our Lord is just constantly giving grace after grace, after grace, after grace, but the world we live in has so infected us that we’re emboldened and think that we’re somehow allowed to be militant in our interactions with other believers. Man, the world knows that we’re of Christ because of the love we have for one another. – Oh, that’s what I was gonna go. – We are to be militant. We are to be militant with the truth and unbelievers in the sense that we’re aggressive saying we have the truth. But if you’re talking to someone that already has the truth. – One minute. – Love them, man. – Yeah, absolutely. – Like no, everything Ryan says is pure gold. 100% and it’s funny how social media does play into this. So Ryan just alluded to it. I’m looking at John 1334.35. This the night of Jesus arrest. I’m looking at the time. There’s my nowhere. A new command when I give to you that you love one another just so I have loved you. So you also are to love one another. By this, all people will know that you are my disciples if you have the greatest political arguments. Right? Or say the most derogatory comments to another Christian column out for their sin or something. No. By if you love the greatest apological arguments, right? Or say the most derogatory comments to another Christian column out for their sin or something like, “No, by if you love one another.” It is what one of the few places, it’s not the only place that Jesus gives the unbelieving world the right to judge us as Christians by one factor how we love one another. And nowhere is that more obvious on social media and how Christians are awful to one another? – Yeah, it’s social media. – If a Christian is unforgiving to another Christian and a Christian is not being loving toward another Christian and says they’re doing what God wants, you can for sure know they’re not walking in the spirit. – Good point. I give you permission to cut me off right at seven minutes. – Okay, Cory. – Well, you’re on. – Can I cut you off at two? (laughs) – I give you permission to cut me off right at seven minutes. – Okay, Cory. – Well, you’re on. – I cut you off at two. (laughs) – Cory. – I’m expecting you to. – All right. There’s a client of seminary degree requirements with requirements dropping for seminary degrees, such as language requirements. What is being compromised? – There’s time. – Nothing, it’s totally awesome. Working pastors, we need a break. (laughs) – No, good Cory. – I love it. So Ryan’s about on the 10 year plan for him. And the if right, whereas I may, whatever, awesome working pastors we need to break. No, good question. I love it. So Ryan’s been on the 10 year plan for his and the if right, or as I may, whatever. I want to start it in 2015. It is the 10 year mark this year. So that’s why he won’t be a student in my school. So I just wouldn’t handle that. Let’s see. It’s for your question. What are requirements? Yeah, so dropping a seminary degree, such as language for a master divinity was being compromised. One thing that’s being compromised is being taught the whole world, of being equipped to teach the whole council of God. To teach the whole council of God, you need to know things that seminary is geared toward training, for example, the languages, right? And this is in your question. This happens often with semaries as we move ahead. Theological education is sort of, it’s an interesting place because it’s becoming so focused on almost like the secret sense of model for church, model, pragmatism. A lot of schools are pressured to do the same. What does the incoming student, what can we do to meet their needs? And it becomes, seminary becomes almost like this accessory in someone’s life. So right now, I’m even in, I just finished my Herm and I just finished my Herm and I just classed. I’ve had students, right now we’re talking, by the time this, this airs, they’ll be done. But I have a couple of students right now that are asking for extensions on their papers. Fine, I give extensions all the time. No problem. In fact, I’d rather not know the reason, just ask me for the extension, I’ll give it to you. When you add the reason that’s when I’m like, “Good more than nine times a 10. It’s a bad reason.” Like, you shouldn’t even told me that. And one of them is, “Well, because can I do it on this day because I’m all for work this day?” Like, what does that matter to me or to the school that you’re offered? So, seminary is not supposed to design to be a convenience for you. It’s the challenge you do the work. And you’ve had all week to work on it too. So why would you wait till the day after it’s due to also want to work on that day because you have nothing else going on your life that day? That’s sort of the culture we have now with students coming in the seminary. And to their credit, they’re sort of fed this line in advertising. And we’ve all seen on commercials of different schools where like, you know, the family, the mom or dad puts the kid to bed or doing all the work. And there’s, while they’re working while they’re doing things, we’re able to do a little homework here, a little homework there and enjoy the whole process because it’s really all about them. And that’s just not the case. There should be something different about seminary than the normal liberal arts education. We take the word of God seriously and that should show in our diligence of it. And so unfortunately a lot of seminaries though they are capitulating to that idea of we need students in and I get it for tuition wise especially schools that are tuition driven like mine is we’re not denominational in German so we don’t get denominational money if you go to donors and tuition. It’s it’s a hard sell because you’re going to be a smaller school but you at that point you like the temptation is to to drop certain credits to make the the degrees a little bit more, you know, you can accomplish it quicker or something like that, right? And so a lot of schools do do that in specific with the language requirements. It used to be doing master divinity is 96 units to 98 units, right? Some go all over to 105 around there, but you’re devoting really to the time of learning the language. The very languages through which Bible and God inspired the Bible, Hebrew and Greek, why would you not wanna learn that? And that takes time, right? So it’s worth the effort, but if you’re operating on a budget where you need students and to get in and they wanna just graduate quick and put the letters after their name, it’s usually the languages that get cut first because it takes the longest, to name, it’s usually the languages that get cut first, because it takes the longest, you know, to learn, and it’s the most, to me it was an enjoyable experience. And I teach now Greek and sub at times on Hebrew, but I’m a New Testament professor, so that’s my lane, so I have to be in Greek. Some, and I’m not alone in this experience, they actually draw closer to God by learning the language and enjoy learning these ancient languages because that’s exactly what God used to write the scriptures, right? So you grow in your awareness of God and in your biblical literacy just by learning the languages. It’s unfortunate that too many schools look at the languages as a, and students coming in as an obstacle, you know, as like this death trap. Well, I would go to school if it wasn’t for the language requirements. To me, it was like the most enriching experience of seminaries actually learned, and I knew all the horror stories. You know, I remember going into some of my late mentor who was our Greek and Hebrew professor. You don’t see that very often. He wrote grammars and he wrote a grammar and Greek as well as Hebrew. It was amazing, you know, in schools, generally, you have a Hebrew professor and then a Greek professor. This guy was teaching both. He was an expert in both. The late Dr. Thomas Ron. And I came to school my very first time for language in seminary and I was terrified because I heard all the horror stories of other people like, “Oh, the language was so hard.” And he said like, “One thing put me at ease.” He’s like, you know, and I say it now in my students too when I teach Greek. Just listen to every, just do what I’m telling you and just do and you won’t have any problems. Later, you’ll learn how to disagree with this and all that, whatever, but just do what I’m telling you and what it comes down to learning to love the language. You’re actually studying the ancient languages that that Jesus and the apostle spoke and the apostles and prophets wrote their scriptures. That is incredible. God did not write the Bible in English. He wrote it in languages, east and west, Hebrew and Greek for a reason. Why would you not want to study that? And once I got over the fear and just learned to trust my professor and learn to love the language, I just became a self-taught learner on top of everything else I was learning that helped me to understand the language better. It was probably, like I said, it was the most rewarding, most enriching time of my entire seminary education was learning the languages. So it’s very unfortunate that schools find the pressure to have to get more students in. The way to do is to cut the language out of your MDiv. You go from a 96-unit degree to a 72-unit degree. I know there are MDivs out there right now that don’t have, they’re like, it’s sort of an now that don’t have it. They’re like, you know, it’s sort of an inch deep in a mile wide. They’re doing survey classes in system act theology and just and basically that’s it. There’s no language training. There’s no deep regressives of exegesis and biblical theology. It’s really unfortunate. So that’s my rant. For all seminaries, keep your languages, keep the Greek and Hebrew in the fall,.98.99 unit, MDiv, whatever it is. – Did you want to pick it back on this part? – You have one minute. – You don’t have one minute. You got… – Less than a minute. – 20 seconds. – I want to be done with school. – All right, all right. – All right, all right, got… – You do. – So when you have… You used to go to seminary for a three- year degrees. It’s not by accident that Jesus spent, we think about three years of the disciples. And traditionally an M.Div takes three years. – Well there you go. – Right, so that’s a seminary education itself, right? Unfortunately, we have too many MA’s, Master of Arts that are lower level degrees. And what that does is attract a crowd that does not want the heavier stuff, the stuff that seminary was designed to be. I’ve had students complain to me that might be two hard. This isn’t relevant to my say counseling program or what I’m doing in church. And like, what do you hear for you here to learn the scriptures and learn the whole council of God, to be able to refute false teachers with the blessed doctrine, with the blessed gospel. But you need to know the deep regresses of the language in the theology, even understand the whole council of God. – I’m cutting it off. – Like, fair enough. Good. If I said another word, I probably would have gotten fired, so let’s move on. – And final topic. Book recommendations, non-recommendations. And Kari will be going through and Ryan and your time – All right. – All right. – Now. – All right, this is one that I did actually write a couple of things because what I’m, I usually, my diet of reading, people ask me this all the time, how do you read, like what’s your method? – I think we’ve ever talked about that. – We haven’t, you know, I think it’s, and I started thinking about this, the way my, and this is just me, I have this principle that I’ve never, I’ve never further than arms length away from a book. It’s something I’m reading. So basically I never read just one book at a time. Now this is just me, not everybody can handle it. – I don’t either have an overactive mind. – Right, so I got on the principle of whatever room I’m in, including the bathroom. I’m talking to every room, right? There are books that I’m reading. So I’m always in every day. (laughing) So like that, that’s interesting. Right, every day, every room. I include my car as a room. Any environment I’m in, I’m within an arms length of a book I’m currently reading. So I’m reading usually five or six books at once. But just a page here, you’re in the drive-thru, Starbucks, something like that, a few minutes, or and that includes audio book too. So I’m reading constantly at all at once. So if you ask me like book recommendations, or even what not to recommend, I would break them down popular level books I’m reading right now or I’ve just finished as well as academic books that I’m reading right now just finished. I just wrote, I just got, I mentioned this a few minutes ago. I just got done writing a book and sent to the publisher. So when you’re writing a book, you’re actually engaging resources. So it’s kind of forcing you to read other books. So some of these are within the project I just did. But one I mentioned a few minutes ago, Caitlin Beatty’s Celebrity for Jesus. This is the popular level book. So I popular an academic for popular. Here’s several Caitlin Beatty’s celebrity celebrities for Jesus subtitle how personas, platforms and profits. That is PRO F I T S not profits as a biblical prophet, but money profits are hurting the church, published by Brazos in 2022. Excellent book, it hits hard of the problem of Christian celebrities. Another popular work that was really helpful for me that I really enjoyed was Gavin Ortland’s, what does it mean to be Protestant, subtitle the case for an always reform. – He’s a good writer. – He’s an excellent writer. I don’t know why I just podcast, and I know he’s got a huge podcast. I don’t watch any of them. I’m more of a visual. I like to read, right? Well, this particular book published by Zondra Finn Reflective in 2024, it broadens up. I get so kind of narrow and periocal on my studies of like dispensationalism and even evangelicalism because this book I wrote was on Evangelicalism. This book helped me branch up just enjoy, what does it mean to be a Protestant? And all the different denominations within it, very, very helpful in Gavin, or in how some really good just tips on there, how to agree and disagree respectfully as a Christian we just mentioned earlier within that, how to hear someone’s other side from say a denomination or from another tradition and why it makes sense to them. You know, that was really helpful for me, but it was just really enjoyable to branch up to understand Protestantism. Another popular book is just about to be released. – You have 30 seconds for your portion. – So we’re only at two minutes and five seconds. I’m cutting in half, I’m doing three and a half minutes. You can do the other three and a half seconds. So, Andre is Koszenberger, has a new book coming out introducing Jesus, the four fold gospel by Kregal. I was privileged to be able to write an endorsement for it, which I do for a lot of his works because he’s just an excellent scholar and evangelical scholar in so many different levels. But this takes his Jesus of the Gospels and makes it even more condensed and accessible to like a high school crowd, if you had that type of education, very good introduction to Jesus. And finally on the popular level would be my friend Sam Parkinson. He wrote the environment of Jesus, the beauty of Christ and his ugly rivals by Christian focus. Just came out, emphasizing the beauty of the man Christ. Very, very helpful. I know in past my time, I’m not gonna explain them all, but my academic ones are Robert Bowman and Ed Kamis-Weske. I’m probably butchering his name, sorry Ed. The incarnate Christ and his critics, a biblical defense just came out, probably the best most comprehensive apologetic for Jesus Christ, his divinity, his devianity and his humanity. John Hannah’s, I love an uncommon union, Dallas Theological Seminary, an American Evangelicalism. It’s a great history. It’s an intellectual history of evangelicals and fundamentalism and the place of Dallas seminary within it. And Elijah Hicks and Peter Gurry myths and mistakes and New Testament textual criticism published by IVP 2019. It’s just fantastic resource that we assign actually at SCS and just really good stuff on textual criticism. Different myths and popular things passed down of like the amount of manuscripts, how many we have, how talented things like that, really, really helpful. Done. – That’s right. – So you had to take a lot of time because he doesn’t read books. – That’s true, okay. (laughing) – Book recommendations and not micro rankings, what would you recommend? What books do you recommend? Or would you not recommend? The books that I would recommend would be person to person. I do think it’s important to read broadly. I think it’s important to read people you disagree with. I think it’s important to read people from other Christian traditions. So what I would not recommend is I would be a one-on-one thing depending on where the person was. I do recommend we read things that we disagree with because it helps us to think through issues, but at the same time, be careful who you let teach you because you will become like your teachers. And so there are less discerning believers or brothers and sisters that I might encourage them. You probably shouldn’t read that book because they might not have the ability to be critical. And they might adopt some wrong thinking. I’ve experienced that from time to time as a pastor where someone in our church gets a hold of a book and that convinces them of a certain idea but they weren’t, they didn’t have an ability to be critical of that idea. And then when I try to engage them to help them through that, they’ve already decided that that author is more apt to speak to that than I am and then we lose them. There’s a Paul Jennifer Seminaryinary trains, a critical thinking. Yeah. So what books would I not recommend? I think that’s a case by case basis, although I think it’s important to, uh, to be Riley read right now. The books that I’m reading really have to do mostly with the church. Um, I’m reading a book right now called, uh, women’s ministry in the local church, a complimentary and approach by Ligon Duncan and Susan Hunt. Our Women’s Ministry leaders are leading through that as we’re thinking through and reevaluating Women’s Ministry. I think it’s a good book, written from a Presbyterian perspective, but they have a lot of really good things to say. I’m also reading on a personal level Ken Hughes’s book, Liberating Ministry from the Success Syndrome, I think is what it’s called. Excellent book, that book has been watered to my soul as a pastor. I’m also reading for personal interest, I’m reading, I’m looking up the, it’s emotional sabotage, I think is what it’s called. I’m only a couple chapters in an emotional sabotage was written by it’s canon press but Joe what’s his name is it Riggly Joe Riggly emotional sabotage leadership and emotional sabotage the subtitle is resisting the anxiety that will wreck your family Destroy Your Church in Ruin the World.” It’s a really interesting look at how people around you will try to sabotage your leadership and how that can impact your own heart and how to work through that. It’s a really, really great book that I’m enjoying. He writes differently than I’m used to, but I appreciate his perspective. I’m letting go a little longer because I’ve been a little long. Thank you. Academically, seven minutes and seven seconds. One more seven to be striper. Academically, I’m reading Christian Erickson’s Christian theology, a systematic theology volume. I’m reading Christian Erickson’s Christian theology, a systematic theology volume. Christian Eric, he’s a staple in the theology system. – He in the large world. – Melard Erickson? – Oh, Melard Erickson, sorry. – Melard Erickson. – There’s a Christian Erickson that was at our church. That’s why I think that. – By the way, Melard Erickson’s last ETS national, he just got the first ever lifetime award awarded by ETS. Yeah, the guy is brilliant. I had never read his systematic theology and his approach to some issues of systematic theology, I have never considered or thought through. So intellectually, it’s stretching me. I find some areas that I disagree with him, but it’s been very helpful like on the age of the earth and some scientific things that he goes after. But some of the other things that he says about other topics of, I’m challenged to think as I read him and I’m thankful for that. So that’s been a good one for me. Alright, okay. I’m one way away, I want to hear. Yes. What could one book that you could think of one that you would not recommend? What’s one that’s just, you hate. (laughs) – One book that I absolutely hate. – Well, maybe Jesus calling by Sarah. – Ah, and that is grubbing. – You’re basically– – I had to because how many women– – You’re right, right. – It is consistently on the top selling list. – It is true. – Every month. – Yeah, true. – So, yeah. – All right, well, thank you guys. You survived the rant. – You want my book that I wouldn’t recommend? – Please. – Oh, what. – Every month. – Yeah, true. – Yeah. – So, yeah. – Yeah. – All right, well, thank you guys. You survived the rant. – You want my book that I wouldn’t recommend? – Please. – Please. – What was your book? – Well, it’s your book. – It’s your book. – “The Christian Cobes Demes Jesus and John Wayne, how white evangelicals corrupted a faith and fractured a nation.” – I’m pretty sure nobody’s reading that. – Oh, it’s a New York Times bestseller. – It’s a New York Times bestseller. – I read it, unfortunately, ’cause it’s one of my conversation partners for the book I just read. I wrote, “scholars, if they can put the word white in front of Evangelical, they have nothing to write about.” It’s like everything is just put a target of white conservative males, because of course she conflates Evangelicals and with Republicanism, Trumpism. It’s like, it’s just garbage, right? It’s written really well. So in July, well, in that sense, it can actually be written, but I would say that’s probably because of the editor. But anyways, it’s a book that’s like cotton, it’s like wildfire. And everybody within that are like critical professors and scholars, they have to act like they love this book, so why opening? It’s funny how the most critical people about white, the most critical scholars of white evangelicals are white, quote unquote, even, “Jell goes themselves.” Somehow overlooking their own whiteness in the critiques that they give. You know, and so– – It’s a faux humanity. – It totally is, it totally. And that’s how you get published. You know, throw the word white from the evangelical and just say how awful it is, and then define evangelicals and by everything other than how we would say from a high view of scripture down, it’s just a mess. So I would not recommend that even though you’re supposed to read that if you’re you know, up on your scholarship and in the New York Times bestseller books. Well again, thank you guys for you survived the rant. Good job. You survived the rant. Good job. You’re used to ride the ring. Yeah. And David that heated, we got to do another one and get a fired up. Like a shotgun round. All right. We’re dissociating. We should have a rant where he, I mean, I disagree on something that we’ve rained about that. All right. All right. Or we should have our wives on and they can rant about us. No. All right. Let’s not do that. Let’s not do that. All right. Well, thank you gentlemen. And thank you for tuning in. (upbeat music)